Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ   Website Home Page

Board index » Sword & Fittings » Japanese Art Swords




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 59
G'day to all,

I recently bought this blade. I am a collector of early blades and most of my swords are Kamakura to Nambokucho. Now that I have this sword in hand it looks very very early. Has anyone seen a similar Hoju? The shape reminds me of an Emishi-to. I had thought it maybe a reshaped nagamaki but the taper of the kisane towards the kisaki is regular and dosn't seemed to be re-shaped but original. The mune is iroi but quite low, could be re-shaped from maru-mune? The jigane has a dark middle layer that is an indistinct masame but shows streaks of fine ko-nie in the jihada. This layer looks like ko-yamato, it is much broader on one side than the other. The colour of the whole sword is dark, the middle layer throws some blue. The side steel layer is abundant with chikei and has dark pools like Awataguchi. The overall look is like Ura mono.

I don't all together agree with the description. I would call the hamon ko chogi gunome in ko-nie, I can't see much in togari other than some hints. The boshi shows nie kuzuri. The shirake utsuri drifts up from the hamon in spikes and is whitish.

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Hirazukuri_Koto_Katana.htm

cheers,
Adrian S


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm
Posts: 79
Adrian,

This one looks to be of the Oei to Kansei era.
Although its overall shape is very similar to the Oei Bizen, its hada is in fact different.
I have a signed Hoju dated Oei second or third year, its chikei is very much like this.
The hada around its monouchi looks quite tired, by looking at the part, my Kuniyuki tachi is quite similar. This Kuniyuki is not of famed Rai, somewhat looks like earlier Fujishima. Thus, you r speculation is probably right. This is a work of a Hokkoku smith or a Hoju smith.

Wataru


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 59
Hello Mr. Wataru,

I must admit, I have not seem an Oei period Hoju to hand. I have seen some earlier Hoju tachi and the chikei is indeed similar. The rough hada dosn't look weak in hand, and it is holding the habuchi so I expect it is higher in carbon content than iron. I was also thinking from the sugata that this sword could be Oei Soden Bizen, maybe a Motoshige, but the sori and the nakago is different. It would be curious if the shape is early, it reminds me of the Kiyohira sword. Especially the width, length and placement of the bohi, the width and shape of the nakago and the kissaki shape. I am enjoying studying this piece at any rate it won't be going anywhere soon.

cheers,
Adrian S


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm
Posts: 79
Adrian,

Its nakago and low iori mune is more like Uda.
Older swords tend to have very thin nakago hammered finish. The Oshu swords tend to have very short nakago. I have seen only one wakizashi came up to sale from earlier age. It was mumei, and looked lower level of manufacture.

Wataru


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 59
Hello Mr. Wataru and Carlo,

Yes, Uda is a possibility. The nakago it machi okuri about 3cm, the end of the nakago looks like it has a hammer finish but it could just be age. The original nakago would be very short, but I admit that the shape looks later than old Oshu. Some Emishi-to have a similar shape nakago but look more crude. This sword is uchigatana and the original length is 65cm. The hamon looks just like old Gassan. The construction seems to be an inserted edge warihatetsu or honsanmai with an hagane middle layer. I will put a small window in the mune burnish this weekend with jizuya and see it I can make out a middle layer (after which I will re-burnish it ). Later after I do a chemical analysis to see if this sword is possibly very old, I may be able to pinpoint the source material to Oshu or elsewhere. After which I will get an Radiographic Xray done to confirm the construction. This sword has some interesting features that are hard to describe. I will do some diagrams for you and post them later.

Carlo, I was reading your article and noticed on Masakuni's Sword Evolution table of sword sugata that he has no. 15 "hirazukuri katana" being late Heian to start of Kamakura. Intersting that it evolves later to Emishi-to that then becomes concurrent. He dosen't join the line to Ryokozuka-to indicating that it evolved separately. Does Masakuni suggest that the hirazukuri katana was solely a northern phenomenon? Does he offer any diagrams or descriptions of this early type of sword? We see a break in the timeline in Kamakura and then an evolution to "hirazuki wakizashi".

cheers,
Adrian S


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:43 pm
Posts: 76
Hra zukuri katana were much in vogue at the end of Nambokucho, beginning of Muromachi, I have seen several hira zukuri Bizen Katana signed and dated end of Nambokucho.

The hada is also typical Oei, here is one example, I let you find/guess the school (quite easy).

You will notice the chikei and the violent hada


Attachments:
Hada4.jpg
Hada4.jpg [ 165.38 KiB | Viewed 10224 times ]
Hada3.jpg
Hada3.jpg [ 231.15 KiB | Viewed 10224 times ]
Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 59
G'day Jean,

Yes, that was my first thought as well Oei period, maybe Mino. But this sword is quite different in sugata and very different in jigane and construction. In time I will post a research articule on it. I should re-write my question, has anyone seen a hirazukuri katana that is earlier than Nambokucho?

As for your sword, a bit unfair to call a kantei based on jigane only, but I'll have a go...Uda

cheers,
Adrian S


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm
Posts: 79
Adrian,

Getting a chemical analysys of your blade is indeed very interesting challange. Please share the result for this community.

I have seen two hirazukuri uchigatana dating Gentoku 2nd year (1330) and Kenmu 2nd year (1334.) One was of Tegai Kanetsugu and its length was about 36cm, the other one was of Bizen Sukemura and its kength was about 54cm. Both looked quite sleek and thick, stout construction.
Since both of them had suguha temperline, I think these were for practical purpose and could be order made pieces by named warriors. We rarely see such unique blades.

Wataru


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:43 pm
Posts: 76
Wataru sama,

Taking into account the length of these swords and the period, I should call them Kodachi.

Adrian,

Here are are a few picks. Oei Bizen Yasumitsu - Tachi mei - First Generation. During this period, Oei Bizen smith produced two type of swords, the ones with a classical Muromachi suguta which are very famous as this one:

http://www.nihonto.com/5.3.11.html

Or late Heian/beginning Kamakura tachi suguta in suguha as this example:


Attachments:
Mei.jpg
Mei.jpg [ 152.66 KiB | Viewed 10187 times ]
Nakago.jpg
Nakago.jpg [ 134.63 KiB | Viewed 10187 times ]
Hada2.jpg
Hada2.jpg [ 146.42 KiB | Viewed 10187 times ]
Hada1.jpg
Hada1.jpg [ 146.06 KiB | Viewed 10187 times ]
SUGUTA.jpg
SUGUTA.jpg [ 163.53 KiB | Viewed 10187 times ]
Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Has anyone seen a blade like this?
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 59
G'day Jean and Mr. Wataru,

Jean, my first instinct was Oei Bizen! should have stayed with that.

Ok more information about my sword. I have put a window into the mune with hazuya and can verify a middle layer shows clearly. As the bohi are well done and show no sign of coarse hada or shintetsu, my conclusion is that this sword was made without shingane but is sanmai with a hagane middle layer.

I have attached a diagram of the construction, it is an approximation but will give you the idea.

I have some exciting news. Studying the hamon I see ko-nie deki gunome midare in the upper half (mono uchi) of the blade. The hamon then become quieter almost suguha and ends in Yaki otoshi. I have been studying the hamachi area and see some strange effect there. It is definately not mizukage as it is very different. It is a mottled utsuri like effect. The hamon also carries on after yakiotoshu but is indistinct . At first I though I am looking at a steel change and maybe some indication of a effect like Bungo Yukihiro. but after studying it I realised that the hada does not change and there is no weld boundary. More research and I found what it is, it is old style Koshiba! I have never seen it before, but this page explains it perfectly and the diagram matches what I am looking at.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/yakiotoshi.html

I am getting more excited. The hamon looks like the Mokusa Yoyasu (Sean or Toshiyasu in some books) . Mr. Wataru, have you seen the Yoyasu in hand, does it have koshiba??

cheers,
Adrian S


Attachments:
construction-oshu.jpg
construction-oshu.jpg [ 79.99 KiB | Viewed 10179 times ]
Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Sword & Fittings » Japanese Art Swords


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron